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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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 Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Your last sentence merits a thread longer than this one on the 'anthropology' BB.
Yeh, 'Western' civilization has a tendency to fail every 500 years, and we're about due. Looks like that to me (at 61), all of my friends (closer to 50) and their kids (closer to 20). In engineering, we call that a trend and it triggers a deeper layer of investigation. Or it used to, before engineering investigation became something America offshores to China if they do it at all.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...' |
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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So I heard back from the blog outreach team and she said:
| Quote: | Hi Omega,
Thank you so much for the reply and the explanation. After further review on your account, I see that you have been working with Chantale at Dell Canada. Chantale will need to remain your point of contact. Chantale is quite capable of assisting you with any issue or concerns you may have.
Thank you,
Jackie |
Clearly she's not in any position to do something conclusive. Chantale made a response to my BBB complaint as well. Seems like I've attracted a greifer within Dell who has taken it upon herself to ensure that I get the worst treatment possible.
My my, what extents will this company go to?! Every interaction I have now is intercepted by this Chantale and she does nothing but make Dell look bad.
By the way, Chantales response to the BBB once again tries to leverage terms I didn't agree to. She's relentless on insisting that these are terms I agreed to, what part of this does she not understand?!
It's like as if without those, they know they're sunk. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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OK, you reached 2 different layers of policy clerks, who have chosen to back each other up. Coulda seen that coming. Their job is to enforce policy (stonewall), and their authority to bend policy in special circumstances is critically reviewed by their management (they can be fired for satisfying customers).
A complex legal argument has to be formally taken to court. Policy clerks will ALWAYS reject it, and the more insistent you get the higher up the chain of command will backup their subordinates. Like them saying, "if you want to talk to Legal, then sue." For a policy clerk, that is the correct thing to imply.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | OK, you reached 2 different layers of policy clerks, who have chosen to back each other up. Coulda seen that coming. Their job is to enforce policy (stonewall), and their authority to bend policy in special circumstances is critically reviewed by their management (they can be fired for satisfying customers).
A complex legal argument has to be formally taken to court. Policy clerks will ALWAYS reject it, and the more insistent you get the higher up the chain of command will backup their subordinates. Like them saying, "if you want to talk to Legal, then sue." For a policy clerk, that is the correct thing to imply. |
I'll first see if BBB, my CC and possibly arbitration get. Nice solutions that don't require the financial uphill waste of time: hiring a lawyer.
Unless EFF wants to back me up. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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The baseline cost for a lawsuit is $50,000 US. Dell knows this, that is why they stiffarm customers with claims lower than that and get away with it. There are published exceptions, but suing Dell is almost always futile unless you're the Attorney General of NY with political aspirations, or you're a class-action with broad support.
Michael Dell was RAISED by a lawyer. Surely you didn't think he was an engineer or a diplomat. Those are the people he lays off every chance he gets.
Sorry, there's so much backstory on Dell that almost nobody knows, so don't fault yourself. He fooled NASDAQ for a long time too.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...' |
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | The baseline cost for a lawsuit is $50,000 US. Dell knows this, that is why they stiffarm customers with claims lower than that and get away with it. There are published exceptions, but suing Dell is almost always futile unless you're the Attorney General of NY with political aspirations, or you're a class-action with broad support.
Michael Dell was RAISED by a lawyer. Surely you didn't think he was an engineer or a diplomat. Those are the people he lays off every chance he gets.
Sorry, there's so much backstory on Dell that almost nobody knows, so don't fault yourself. He fooled NASDAQ for a long time too. |
No, and I have no illusions on that either.
But bear in mind I will still make sure that Dell does not get my money and I'll be persuading my CC issuer, the BBB and every other means possible.
The fact of the matter is that Dell shipped me defective equipment, equipment prone to failure, did not serve me terms, fails to replace failing parts with functioning parts, and has overall despicable service.
Who can side with them given such a poor track record? I can't see my CC doing that... |
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Omega
Regular Hater
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yet another email from Dell today.
I didn't end up reading all of it as I did myself a favor and stopped when they said
| Quote: | | "As it states at the beginning of the document, accepting delivery of your computer system –" |
An excerpt from my reply:
| Quote: | And I have stopped reading.
Martin, do you know what a contract of adhesion is and what the best way to make it completely ineffective is? Give your customer no option to disagree and/or negotiate the terms. The confidentiality notice at the bottom of your email is a perfect example of this. You can't bind terms by telling somebody they agree to it by an action they would have performed prior to being notified that it would indicate agreement.
Opening a box doesn't signify acceptance of anything because I don't know what is in the box in the first place. Do you want to know why and how that is? Because I was never told! I'm not even required to open the book, I don't even know if I got a book because I ordered a laptop, not a book full of terms. So that is why I took the laptop and the power adapter out of the box. I didn't get the box and go "Oh goodies, my lackluster terms of use, service and sale are here!" Something of which I'm sure Dell would love to get into the business of selling.
... |
It goes on, but I got the meat of it in there. What is with these guys, they're like regular bullies?! I can't explain it to them in such a way that they'll accept.
It's so strange. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can't explain it to them in such a way that they'll accept. |
Not to be confrontational, but I can't seem to explain to you that policy clerks are under specific instructions not to argue legal technicalities with customers.
T&C is policy, that's all the clerks are there for. Only in court can you argue validity and get a binding decision. Just between us, I think you're right--opening a box does not constitute binding acceptance of terms. Putting the terms inside the box is just their way of telling you "here is what you just stepped in, in case you were wondering".
But here's the outfall. If you're not bound by the T&C, neither are they. No warranty, no nothing. Unless you're willing to escrow $50,000 over a $2000 piece of junk. That's why nobody has sued them on that basis up to now, and why they continue to get away with shitty service.
That's just where we stand. Customers tend to assume the T&C will take care of them to their reasonable satisfaction. Many retailers do, including going beyond the written legal terms to achieve satisfaction. Dell goes the other way. By now, everyone should know.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | | Quote: | | I can't explain it to them in such a way that they'll accept. |
Not to be confrontational, but I can't seem to explain to you that policy clerks are under specific instructions not to argue legal technicalities with customers.
T&C is policy, that's all the clerks are there for. Only in court can you argue validity and get a binding decision. Just between us, I think you're right--opening a box does not constitute binding acceptance of terms. Putting the terms inside the box is just their way of telling you "here is what you just stepped in, in case you were wondering".
But here's the outfall. If you're not bound by the T&C, neither are they. No warranty, no nothing. Unless you're willing to escrow $50,000 over a $2000 piece of junk. That's why nobody has sued them on that basis up to now, and why they continue to get away with shitty service.
That's just where we stand. Customers tend to assume the T&C will take care of them to their reasonable satisfaction. Many retailers do, including going beyond the written legal terms to achieve satisfaction. Dell goes the other way. By now, everyone should know. |
Hey, yeah...I'm not saying I don't understand. But the fact that it happens isn't excusable.
As well - if the terms of sale were breached, who cares about $50,000? Just get my $2000 back through my CC and be done with it. Thankfully there are a few systems in place prior having to get a lawyer and I think in a lot of ways those systems exist for these very reasons.
If you feel slighted in any way by a company and you believe in yourself enough - some routes are open. No matter what Dell may think in terms of lenience, even what they claim to offer (which isn't worth the paper it is written on) wasn't announced. So the rest of it can't be upheld either, indeed. If I got a refund, I'd gladly (censor) and post a receipt for the purchase of a replacement system.
I do truly believe I have a computer I can't rely on here. This isn't just a lot of dust over nothing. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I do truly believe I have a computer I can't rely on here. |
You also have a vendor you can't rely on. That's been amply demonstrated, in your case and roughly a million others. I wholly support that assertion.
Here's where they've got you on the T&C. The product and the terms show up on your porch at the same time, along with a 21-day period within which you can cancel the transaction without penalty. It is incumbent upon the customer to reject the T&C within that period. You didn't. Case dismissed.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | | Quote: | | I do truly believe I have a computer I can't rely on here. |
You also have a vendor you can't rely on. That's been amply demonstrated, in your case and roughly a million others. I wholly support that assertion.
Here's where they've got you on the T&C. The product and the terms show up on your porch at the same time, along with a 21-day period within which you can cancel the transaction without penalty. It is incumbent upon the customer to reject the T&C within that period. You didn't. Case dismissed. |
T&C were served after payment was made.
Case not dismissed. I was not informed of a return period or presence of terms either.
They still can't get past that. And their own email damns them. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Devil's advocate, isn't that like telling a cop you were speeding because you didn't see the speed limit?
A buyer knows a purchase comes with terms like a driver knows roads come with speed limits. Not looking, not reading, not asking doesn't relieve you of consequences.
Does it? BTW, are you an attorney, or have you consulted one? I'm not.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Ghost_of_Roundrock
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Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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WOW...
IMAGINE THAT....
I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!
LOL |
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Omega
Regular Hater
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghost_of_Roundrock wrote: | WOW...
IMAGINE THAT....
I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!
LOL |
Not really. Things are starting to look good for me in this situation. Just got a call from my CC and an email back from Martin of Dell.
They're still clinging desperately to their terms, and have started to realize that they can either dig their heels in and stop pretending to be nice, or give in and admit they shipped me defective equipment.
Guess what they chose? LOL |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Persistence can pay with Dell. Their procedures (stonewalls) are built around the premise that being told 'no' by 3 levels of policy clerks makes most people give up. But at a certain point, responding to you begins to cost them more than fixing the problem. So they either cut you off, or give you what you want.
They know you can't sue them over the T&C, for practical reasons. We know they blow off customers who become problematical. They have tried to do that to you. I can't explain why you're still getting emails from Dell, any more than I can guess the outcome.
Some posters ended up getting more than they wanted, largely by being persistent. Some posters say they were blackballed. Some customers hate Dell, some customers love them. If nothing else, Dell is inconsistent.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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