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Omega
Regular Hater
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| slinky317 wrote: | Omega,
You will not win this case. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's a fact. Other people seem to have told this to you nicely but you're not listening.
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slinky317, I think you're like all the other people in that you've just post-skimmed and missed out on some very critical facts.
| slinky317 wrote: | First of all, let's cover the Terms and Conditions. In one of the opening lines, the terms say:
These terms and conditions ("Agreement") apply to your purchase of computer systems and/or related products and/or services and support sold in the United States ("Product"). By accepting delivery of the Product, you accept and are bound to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. If you do not wish to be bound by this Agreement, you must notify Dell and return your purchase pursuant to Dell's Return Policy. (See: http://www.dell.com/policy/legal/warranty.htm.)
The system cannot be ordered without the customer agreeing to the T&C. Sales Reps have to click a button and if they do not do that, the sale will not take place. And since you accepted the shipment, you have accepted the T&C. |
Unfortunately they can click a button on a terminal, and not serve terms of service. I don't think you get it. Better still is that I bet anyone can call and have it happen over again right now.
I wasn't served terms of service, and just because they THINK they did, doesn't mean they actually have. It would likely be in their best interest to secure some kind of recording of the agreement. As a matter of fact, many legally conscious IP phone providers get you to pre-record agreement to terms regarding 911 service. So let's not get into a self-obsessed feasibility study on what I've just said.
Dell did not serve me terms of service, use or sale, and I'm not bound to anything I was not presented in the first place. If it wasn't presented at the time of sale, I'm not bound to it. Look up "contract of adhesion" little minded one and educate yourself on something more than caustic complacency trolling... Do you work for Dell?
I'm not sure you're listening so well, 'cause I've explained that at least twice in this thread!
| slinky317 wrote: | Now, regarding the return policy that you rudely told someone they were "out of the loop too long" and that it was a 30 day policy, here is the policy:
Hardware Products and Accessories: Unless you have a separate agreement with Dell or except as provided in the section below, all hardware, accessories, peripherals, parts and software that is unopened and still in its/their sealed package or, if delivered electronically, that has not been downloaded, may be returned within twenty-one (21) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice for a credit or a refund of the purchase price paid, less shipping and handling and applicable restocking fees.
Granted, there are exceptions to this rule that allow for 30 days of return, but those are only for PowerEdge, PowerConnect, and PowerVault systems - none of which apply to you. |
Buddy, I have a flipping email FROM DELL saying THIRTY (30), three zero days. What is wrong with you? Problem is they chose to tell me these terms too late. So don't even act like the fact they told me has their bases covered, do you work for Dell or something? Man, 'cause you're about as stupid and relentlessly ignorant as a Dell rep.
| slinky317 wrote: | | You do have a warranty on your system - yes, you will get a refurbished part, but that is misleading. A lot of refurbed parts are cancelled orders that never shipped, so the part is practically new. Does it suck? Yes. Is it clearly written in the T&C and in the warranty agreement? Yes - it says they will replace your parts with new OR refurbed parts. |
Didn't agree to that bud. Dell violated the terms of sale. Re-read what I said, because nothing much else you write is worth responding to given the amount of overlap between what I've already explained and your misunderstandings.
| slinky317 wrote: | | Sorry man, but I say bite the bullet on this one and go with the part they sent you. It will save you quite a headache in the longrun. |
What headache? You're a bit presumptuous to think you can come in all sanctomonious and start doling out the 411 when every single point you made is basically contradicted by things I've already said.
That's great! Where were those when I was making the purchase? What part of that do you find so difficult to comprehend? |
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| slinky317 wrote: | | Oh, and also... when you go to the store and buy a shirt, does that store read off the terms and conditions for that shirt or the complete return policy before you pay for it? Of course not. Instead, that information is posted on walls of the store, and it is your responsibility to read it and acknowledge it. Dell's T&C are located, albeit slightly tucked away, on their website. And as mentioned before, the sales rep you were working on clicked that you acknowledged and agreed to the terms, and by accepting the package you agreed to them even further. |
Yes, as a matter of fact just this weekend my fiancee and I were shopping and they said "You can return this for exchange but not a refund."
Oh, and also when I USED TO SELL COMPUTER PARTS, I USED TO TELL PEOPLE.
Maybe Dell can call me back and say that the caller display is the leg up to get terms in on me? Oh wait - I don't have caller display!
Oh, maybe you haven't heard of the chicken/egg concept that if I don't have a computer, I CAN'T READ THE TERMS.
Damn, boy. You just aren't that bright! You come up with all these really far fetched excuses that just wouldn't fly if Dell actually tried to use them. The whole premise of a purchase agreement is that the terms are agreed to at the time of purchase. Anything else afterwards either invalidates the purchase agreement, or requires a mutual renegotiation of the purchase agreement (which in many cases involve changes in payment etc...).
It's only fair that if Dell tries to encumber their customers with a fanfare of legal garbage, that I get to hold them to their own practice. If they want to make everything super official AND treat me like crap, I'm in no way endeared to them and if they violate the agreement they so knowingly and desperately cling to, I'll make sure that's exactly what happens. Dell violated the purchase agreement, which sadly at the time they only went so far as to communicate "warranty" and little else...As you'll see below.
| slinky317 wrote: | Also, your claim that the Terms and Conditions were not in your e-mail are false. Your e-mail should read, at the bottom:
| Quote: | | Your order is subject to Dell's Terms and Conditions of Sale which include a binding arbitration provision. |
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Yeah, I'm pretty much convinced that you work for Dell now. You just keep saying things without considering that they're wrong. You assume as if "Well Dell did this because I say so". So, for your viewing pleasure, I post in its entirety the ONLY email sent to me regarding the purchase as I made it prior to any subsequent correction or complaint emails. Which, I'll add don't contain any information either.
God you're dumb...
| Quote: |
Dell Order Information / Détails de votre commande
--------------------------------------------------
Order Number / Numéro du suivi de commande: *********
Order was placed on / Date du placement de la commande: **/**/****
Estimated Delivery Date: **/**/**** / Date prévu de la livraison: **/**/****
Shipped To / Livré à:
Meow meow
Woof woof
Canada
GST / TPS : $$$
PST / TVQ : $$$
Shipping and/or Handling / Frais d'expédition et de manutention: $0.00
Total Order Amount / Montant total de la commande : $$$$
All amounts shown are in Canadian Dollars / Tous les montants sont en dollars canadiens.
Order Detail / Détails de la commande
Qty Part # Description
Quantité / No. de la pièce / Description
--- -------- ---------------------------------------------
1 466-4856 I9400,CORE 2 DUO T7200(2.00GHZ)
1 310-8628 VISTA PREMIUM STICKER, INSP
1 312-0374 80 WHR,9-CELL,LION,PRIM BATT,I9400/E1705
1 313-4910 DELL RESOURCE DVD,BACK-UP,INSP
1 313-5030 8X DVD+/-RW DRIVE,I9400/E1705
1 320-4779 256MB NVIDIA 7900GS,9400/E1705
1 320-4926 LCD,17-INCH,TLIFE ENH,WUXGA ,I9400/E1
1 412-0917 ADOBE ACROBAT READER V7.0,INSP
1 420-6436 VISTA,PC-RESTORE, DIM/INSP
1 420-6464 ROXIO CREATOR LE,V,DIM/INSP
1 420-6481 DELLSUPPORT,VISTA,DIM/INSP
1 420-6556 WIN VISTA HOME PREM,ENG,INS
1 420-6594 MCAFEE 8,ENG,30 DAY,DIM/INSP
1 430-0493 INTEGRATED NIC AND MODEM
1 430-1516 INTEL PRO/WRLS 3945,A/G,DC,I9400/E1705
1 463-2282 THANKS FOR PURCHASING YOUR DELL
1 465-8856 160GB HARD DRIVE,I9400/E1705
1 466-4779 2GB,DDR2,533MHZ,2 DIMM,I9400/E1705
1 412-0915 MS WORKS 8.5,DAO,ENG, INS
1 920-0176 HW WRTY,INSP,9400,DELL,INIT
1 920-0180 RTD,INSP,9400,SOL,INIT YR
1 960-2780 WARRANTY SPRT,INSP,INIT YR
1 009-6800 SHIPPING FEE
1 950-9057 NO WARRANTY,YRS 2/3(1-1-1RTD)
1 600-0014 **** ADS,NOTEBOOK PCS
K Sangeeta
Sales representative
Work : 1-866-489-3355 ext. 72482
Fax : 1-800-387-5753 Attn: 72482
Customer Care :1-800-847-4096
Customer Experience is very important to us. Please forward any feedback about myself or Dell Canada to my manager, srinath_kailasam@dell.com
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Happy now? NO OTHER information was sent or given to me regarding my purchase. I was never once served terms on the phone or in an email.
Now go piss all over yourself trying to deny that, because I searched my entire gmail account for strings you quoted - *GASP* not a single instance! Of course, now I know what a jackass like you is prone to doing. You'll dissect every letter of the summary of components and attempt to derive some excuses as to why and how each one describes the full terms, while still only being no more than fifty characters long.
Oh, this will be entertaining... |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Folks, please find more civil ways to disagree than namecalling. The T&C here are, attack issues not people.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
Regular Hater
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | | Folks, please find more civil ways to disagree than namecalling. The T&C here are, attack issues not people. |
It's just odd that someone would have so much trouble reading? He's obviously just blowing the Dell trumpet. He already admits in a prior post that he works for Dell.
Does this just prove my point further? That Dell treats people like as if they're always wrong? |
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slinky317
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Omega,
You are correct, I do work for Dell. Am I here running damage control or anything? Of course not, I'm speaking through personal beliefs and I was just giving my advice. I provided you with evidence in the T&C and that you did agree to do them according to said T&C. If you can provide me some sort of law, ruling, or any legal precedent that says that if you aren't guided through the entire T&C prior to purchase then they aren't valid, then I will see your point. Instead, you have used the same argument throughout the entire thread (even when I provided evidence from the T&C) and then resorted to using personal attacks. I may work for the "big bad company" (and like I said, I am NOT here on any official capacity, and there are many Dell employees that frequent this forum) but by resorting to these attacks you have proven that you are the immature and unprofessional one today.
The e-mail I read from was from a Dell US version, which I assumed would be the same as the Canada division. But, I guess we all know what happens when we assume.
Good luck on your endeavor, and I hope that you truly have facts to back up the statements that you make. However, when presenting your case to whoever you are going to present it to, do yourself a favor and drop the personal insults - it only makes you look desperate. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2678
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for resetting the tone, gentlemen. (Assuming you're both males. And yes I know what Mr. Hand said happens when you assume.)
Dell DOES have an attitude that even when they're deadass wrong they're right because they're Dell. I thought Dell 2.0 was supposed to fix that. Not that I've seen. If you know the internal structure, wouldn't it be more productive to tell a customer how to navigate it rather than tell him he can't? Isn't that approach the root cause of customer dissatisfaction with Dell?
Omega, you asked for comments. Your T&C didn't mention confrontation or defamation. Consider this a rehearsal for what you'll encounter confronting Dell legally. If someone shows you a loophole in your argument, it would be more productive for you to plug it to your own satisfaction than to try to convince someone with no power of resolution that you're right.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | Thanks for resetting the tone, gentlemen. (Assuming you're both males. And yes I know what Mr. Hand said happens when you assume.)
Dell DOES have an attitude that even when they're deadass wrong they're right because they're Dell. I thought Dell 2.0 was supposed to fix that. Not that I've seen. If you know the internal structure, wouldn't it be more productive to tell a customer how to navigate it rather than tell him he can't? Isn't that approach the root cause of customer dissatisfaction with Dell?
Omega, you asked for comments. Your T&C didn't mention confrontation or defamation. Consider this a rehearsal for what you'll encounter confronting Dell legally. If someone shows you a loophole in your argument, it would be more productive for you to plug it to your own satisfaction than to try to convince someone with no power of resolution that you're right. |
On forums the tone is different. If you waste my time making weak assertions, I have no patience for it.
I'm looking for angles more incisive than just belligerent ignorance. I think we can all safely assume I'll be getting more of that no matter when or how I deal with Dell.
On paper, yeah. I've got tons of patience and I've already made my point clearly and calmly. It isn't that I'm incapable of it, I just choose when I want to be nice to people, and slinky's tone was pretty holier than thou.
But okay, who cares. |
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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In more recent news on this, I was contacted today by someone from the "blog outreach" team.
What's up with that? Is this someone who can actually do something, 'cause my list of things that have to be done to make this up to me is a bit longer given all the grief I've gone through.
Are these people for real, or is this just another thinktank policy squad? |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | slinky's tone was pretty holier than thou. |
That is a valid complaint against the entire Dell customer-relations culture.
When I was younger I felt the same way, I chose who to be nice to. Ends up being a lot less effort, and getting you into a lot fewer positions you have to argue your way out of, to just be nice. Or at least neutrally objective. You get better fast-food service that way too.
We have no formal record of a 'blog outreach team'. Obviously, if there were such a thing they would not overtly publicize it since it would lend credibility to sites like this. Run with it, for what it's worth. If the address is @dell.com, you're dealing with a genuine entity.
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Rocke T Sinetist
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Omega
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | | Quote: | | slinky's tone was pretty holier than thou. |
That is a valid complaint against the entire Dell customer-relations culture.
When I was younger I felt the same way, I chose who to be nice to. Ends up being a lot less effort, and getting you into a lot fewer positions you have to argue your way out of, to just be nice. Or at least neutrally objective. You get better fast-food service that way too. |
I don't think anyone is ever entitled to provide bad service because they "feel" that way. Doesn't quite make sense and they're complaining to the wrong people - it's not the customers' fault.
But yeah. We'll see what this blog outreach does. I'm curious to see if it's just a long-ranged policy enforcement tool, or if it's actually designed to improve relationships with customers by making up for poor service, poor quality and mistakes.
As far as I'm concerned, Dell owes me. For data lost, greif, time lost, wasted money, a poor product. This laptop won't last me, no way.
It was never designed to last in the first place. If this blog outreach is solely an option for me to return the machine, I'll take it. |
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slinky317
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...and slinky's tone was pretty holier than thou. |
No offense, but as was yours. Anytime someone replied trying to help you, you immediately acted that any advice given to you that wasn't "Yeah man, you're spot on, go for it!" was totally wrong and you were totally right. I was only responding in kind.
I'm pretty sure the blog outreach team is just a group of people whose sole job is to scour the internet for Dell issues and make an attempt to rectify them. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for an engaging thread, everyone.
I'm just an unemployed engineer with 15/16ths of a degree in psychology, trying to keep the tone productive in between deleting 20+ spams a day.
Posturing tone escalates and absolute tone escalates absolutely, to where communication stops. This is ALWAYS an issue in customer support, not just Dell. Customers can tend to think they have unmitigated rights to their idea of satisfaction, and corporations can tend to think so defensively of their profits that they say 'no' to customers reflexively, eventually driving customers away.
That's kinda what we're trying to solve here, and we see the same dynamics which take place over the phone thousands of times a day (minus the kindly-old-fart arbiter with his finger on the 'delete' button we have here).
When dealing with a megalithic corporation, customers have the choice of adapting to the business structure as it is, fighting it with whatever weapons they can muster, or finding a vendor that doesn't rub them the wrong way.
Corporations on the other hand, have the choice of adapting to the expectations of the marketplace, controlling the marketplace, or being driven out of it. Dell's overall behavior seems to suggest they toyed with the 2nd choice, but are faced with results closer to the 3rd and now looking more favorably at the 1st.
JMO. My 1998 Dell isn't broken, and I'm very unlikely to ever work there again, so I have the luxury of being about as objective on this as anyone.
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Omega
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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A new twist came to my inbox today where Chantale Perreault ( Chantale_Perreault@Dell.com ) the woman I dealt with earlier seems to have taken it upon herself to give me some pretty lousy service.
| Quote: | Omega[my real name],
Please be aware that you should be in receipt by Friday of a letter finalizing Dell Canada’s position regarding the situation at hand. I will also be updating the Better Business Bureau.
From this point forward, there will be no further correspondence by email, and this case is being considered closed.
Thank you,
Chantale Perreault
Executive Support Office | Office de Soutien Executif
Privacy Compliance Office | Office de Conformité de la Vie Privée
DELL CANADA
Direct Line|Ligne Directe: (780) 441-7665
Toll Free | Sans Frais: 1-866-864-0903 ext 17665
Fax | Télécopie: 1-800-387-5753 Attn: Chantale Perreault
E-mail | Couriel: Chantale_Perreault@Dell.com
Office Hours | A L’office: 7:00am – 4:00pm MST/HAR
Customer experience is very important to us. If you would like to provide feedback on my performance or Dell Canada, please email my manager Colleen Hodgson at: Colleen_Hodgson@Dell.com
Votre expérience est très importante. Si vous désirez donner vos opinions sur ma performance ou Dell Canada, vous pouvez envoyer un couriel à mon gérant Colleen Hodgson à: Colleen_Hodgson@Dell.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient's and may contain confidential or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, immediately contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
NOTE DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ: Ce courriel contient des renseignements confidentiels ou protégés par des droits de propriété. Si ce courriel ne vous est pas destiné, vous êtes informé, par le présent avis, que toute divulgation, distribution ou copie de ce message est strictement interdite. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, veuillez le supprimer immédiatement. |
I made sure to include her boisterous and rather one-sided copyright notice. Don't people get it?! You can't copyright and demand confidentiality in an email. This is so Dell-like of her.
Although my suspicion is that Chantale takes great pride in delivering negative information. In some senses, I think there are people at Dell who specifically relish working for a company so devoid of integrity.
If her priority was to do the right thing, she'd have asked for the laptop to be returned and a refund to be made by now.
I wonder how she'll feel when she finds out that the replacement refurbished hard drive they sent me is making some chirping noises. Obviously another drive prone to failure. Dell just doesn't make a very solid case for themselves!
If I ran a company and I had someone as rude and inconsiderate working for me, I'd fire her in an instant. But that's assuming that I ran an honest company.
Feel free to send her a letter saying how silly her decision is. She just refuses to be told that I didn't agree to terms of sale.. |
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Rocke_T_Sinetist
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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That's classic Dell stonewalling, alright. "Here's the deal, go buy from someone else". And the marketplace trend is to do just that, not buy from Dell. And that's precisely why. The products are nothing special, the price is nothing special, and the customer interface is about as bad as it gets.
Dell's (and most) 'save the customer' negotiators stop listening the instant you make a legal assertion, and cut you off as you just saw. You can't take a technical legal argument to a policy clerk and expect positive results. Her supervisor, manager, director and VP will back her up all the way to the top. You kinda gotta figure that, since that's the chain of custody where the attitude came from in the first place.
But she's not the 'blog resolution' person, so she may still not have the last word.
This kind of misunderstanding and enmity is what results when a major retailer images itself as a 'familiar brand' but beneath that facade changes the customarily-expected terms of commerce and doesn't tell anyone until they already have your money. Welcome to the 00s.
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Omega
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocke_T_Sinetist wrote: | That's classic Dell stonewalling, alright. "Here's the deal, go buy from someone else". And the marketplace trend is to do just that, not buy from Dell. And that's precisely why. The products are nothing special, the price is nothing special, and the customer interface is about as bad as it gets.
Dell's (and most) 'save the customer' negotiators stop listening the instant you make a legal assertion, and cut you off as you just saw. You can't take a technical legal argument to a policy clerk and expect positive results. Her supervisor, manager, director and VP will back her up all the way to the top. You kinda gotta figure that, since that's the chain of custody where the attitude came from in the first place.
But she's not the 'blog resolution' person, so she may still not have the last word.
This kind of misunderstanding and enmity is what results when a major retailer images itself as a 'familiar brand' but beneath that facade changes the customarily-expected terms of commerce and doesn't tell anyone until they already have your money. Welcome to the 00s. |
You really capture the essence of what's going on here very well.
I responded to her email regardless, just asserting to her the reality of the situation and making sure I'm still crystal clear.
I'll call Dells bluff any day. The fact that they sent me another noisy HDD actually puts them in violation of provincial consumer laws. I was informed this by someone who I spoke to within the relevant department, so that's another tool in my belt.
Mind you, given Dells policies, it's no surprise. They actively choose to use parts that are more predisposed to malfunction than new ones. It's a cost cutting measure that cuts into the overall product experience. That's a "big picture" that I think they fail to see, and policy clerks like this one are really not in for.
She probably takes her job very seriously, sees all customers as biting dogs who only want to ride her around.
What I don't think she realizes is that even when the automatic defenses Dell presumably provides her with fail, she is still nothing more than a glorified secretary. So I can't blame her really for being so stubborn - I've stripped her of her advantage. I don't forgive her either though because she's still being ignorant and trying to bully a customer around.
I still can't beleive Dell does this, but indeed it is a sign of the times. People are desperate as the silent depression begins to rain down on everyone. |
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