Dell complaints

[Omega]

So, my relationship with Dell finally went sour - just over 30 days in. Didn't take long, and I was scared as hell this would happen.

I bought an inspiron 9400 over the phone in late March early April. Thought it would be a great laptop, save for a few kinks.

When the laptop got to me, the hard drive was making a clicking noise which I thought was nothing (power management, heads switching platters). The laptop functioned fine and was good enough to play World of Warcraft and do all kinds of funky stuff (the hardware specs aren't that bad!). Suffice to say, nothing could possibly have been wrong!

I couldn't have been further from the truth.

Just shy of what I discovered is a 30 day return window (never was told about this...) the hard drive ate its own ass. Now it sounds like a mini key cutter.
Knowing full well that if the system was going to fail within the first month, I'm probably dealing with a company that only produces lemons - I contacted them to return the laptop. My research online shows that the clicking was a symptom of the impending failure, and it was doing such since day one - sadly, I didn't know it was a symptom of a problem until it was too late...

Regardless, Dell decided they had the right to send me a refurbished part, which I thought was completely bogus. Sure enough, they sent me a refurb, and so far I have yet to open the package.

No, instead I contacted a slightly higher up contact I managed to discover at Dell and informed her that if Dell didn't accept a return of the laptop (I even offered to cover shipping!), I'd be reversing charges on them.
Her response was very blithe and rather apathetic to my situation and in rather long words said "haha, no".

Until this point with her, I hadn't revealed my trump card...

I haven't once agreed to any terms of sales, service or use with Dell. Neither on the phone, or in the confirmation receipt email (or the second shipment I had to get made after cancelling the first because of a shipping address cockup) did Dell ever serve me any terms of sale.

All I was told on the phone was that it had a one year warranty. Not a LIMITED warranty, just a warranty. Never was I told of a 30 day return window, that warranty would be with used parts after the 30 day window (hmm, wonder why they do that...), or any other detail. My only assumption was that Dell would be a decent company and do the right thing by providing quality, outstanding service.

Ah, now you say "but you agreed to these terms when you booted the machine..."
Thankfully I didn't, as I was running Ubuntu on the laptop, and not once did I run Windows on the machine.

So, long story short:
o No terms at sale.
o No terms in confirmation email.
o No agreement to laptop agreement.

ONE chargeback for breaching my terms of sale. Which by the way do say "one year warranty", but make no effort to scope limitations of the warranty. Consequently, Dell breached the terms by shipping defective equipment, refusing to accept a refund of equipment that was defective within their 30 day window and last but not least - VERY bad customer service.

If you've not once agreed to anything, you have a leg up with your credit card issuer. Reverse charges on Dell because their poor terms of sale which you can only see AFTER paying them are not in any way enforceable.

Terms of sale and the product must be arranged prior to payment and an agreement secured prior to payment. Anything else is just holding your rights hostage.

In the end, if the charges get reversed (and there's little doubt in my mind with the reputation Dell has going for them), they can pay me inconvenience and handling penalty fees for the bullshit they put me through if they want their laptop back. I have been without this machine for over a week now. Why should I suffer and they be allowed to do this to people unpunished? Greedy slimebags.

Any questions or possible discussion?

[Rocke_T_Sinetist]

Jumping ahead to the bottom line, Dell already has more attorneys than you can afford to hire, more than the credit card company will be willing to pony up on your behalf, to prove that issue. Read the terms again. I think you'll find a phrase in there that makes them effective whether you actively acknowledged them or not. The 'click to proceed' is a license agreement for the software, unrelated to TOS.

Terms do specify 'refurb' replacement parts. It's cheesy on Dell's part, because the vendor reimburses them for warranty parts. Dell just has an inventory of returned parts that test good so the vendor will NOT pay them, and they offload them onto warranty claimants. Not illegal, not even unethical as long as they disclose it, but pisses a lot of people off.

As a credit-card retailer Dell MUST respond to chargebacks. Here's the catch: To cancel the charge, the shipment must be returned. Dell will refuse to issue an RMA, or at the very best drag their feet hoping you will give up. If you return a shipment without RMA, they can refuse it (I think that's what they do) or accept and keep it without ever acknowledging receipt. That's why the person you talked with laughed.

When you're dealing with shysters, you have to figure they have already plugged most of the normal channels which would otherwise give you recourse.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...'

[Omega]

[Rocke_T_Sinetist]

I'm not speaking antogonistically about your case, and such confrontations CAN be won. Just saying it's come up before and Dell has a 'solution' to it. If they put 1/10 the effort into making and supporting products that they put into snowballing customers, they would be an exemplary company.

But I worked there and that is NOT their focus. It's getting your money and keeping it. Period. I think you've figured that out adequately though.

As you may also have surmised, Dell's mission is to screw EVERYBODY, their customers, their employees, their vendors. Just so you know what you're up against. They have been sued repeatedly on all those issues. The NY Attorney General has a current lawsuit against Dell for almost exactly the conditions you describe, plus financing scams.

Pursue it, mate. Determination DOES resolve some Dell customer-satisfaction issues. But not all.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...'

[Omega]

[Rocke_T_Sinetist]

By no means do I defend Dell as 'reasonable or normal'. Their retail practices redefine retailing, and not for the better.

Dell adopted the 'refutation of merchantability' from Microsoft. It has been upheld in court, even though it goes against common-law legal practice dating to the dawn of commerce.

The reason it works for them is that nobody in the buying public has any precedence for anticipating it. Well, they should. This is retail in the next century.

The seller positions itself as an adversary. Sociologically, zero difference between that and the 5th-grade schoolyard bully who outweighs his classmates 2 to 1.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...'

[Omega]

[Ghost_of_Roundrock]

Omega,

I have read your entire post. You failed to understand one of many things. Dell has already received the money for the system that you have in your grabby little hands. While you can request a chargeback on your credit card, the only party that is out of money is the credit card company. The credit card company may give you the money back, but they did not get it from Dell Inc.

As far as the topic of “30 days” goes, Dell does not have a 30 day return policy. They have a 21 day return policy. Dell made this change in ’04 (if memory serves me correct). Dell is counting on you (as the consumer) to forget this little change in the 21 day return policy. This goes from the date of invoice (the date it shipped).

Now let’s talk about the “Terms of Service” (TOS) and the “Terms of Agreement” (TOA). You accepted both of these causes when you opened the box. If you check the literature that came with you system you should find a “Drop – In” in the box that explains this. Drop – Ins are pieces of paper that they put in the box as it goes to shipping to be delivered to your home\office.

On to the next topic of your post, “Refurbished parts”. When you accepted the TOA, explained earlier in this post, it has a cause that states Dell can send you refurbished replacement parts. This can include everything about the system. Even a system exchange can be refurbished. Dell has all of this in a document on the web, and yes as far as Dell is concerned YOU DID ACCEPT IT.


Dell has tried, very vigorously, to think of every way to keep your money. They have more layers of confusion when it comes to the protection of its money. The simple fact is once Dell has your money, now it is theirs and “Come Hell and High Water” before you will get their money back to you.

I was once an employee of DHell. I was a 4 year veteran of technical support & a 2 year rookie in the training department before I saw the writing on the wall. I left DHell in ’05 and never looked back. I was able to get out before the US government probes into the financial aspect of the company. I do not now or further more want to be associated with this company. The backstabbing and double dealing with the customers, vendors and employees was enough for me to leave the company and not list them on my resume. I hope you are able to get your money back; however you are looking for a fight that you may not win. I wish great success in getting this done. You do need to understand that you do not have a leg up in this situation; Dell already has your money.

[Omega]

[Mideastcoast!BT]

As a former ownere of a business, I had one customer that tried to do a charge back. I was given so many days to respond and give my side of the story. In this case they sided with me and I got my money. I asked what would have happenned if they had sided with the customer. Their response was we would have withdrawn the money from my bank. If there was not enough money, they would have with held future charges until they had it all.
So in this case, if the charge back was sucessfull, dell does not have his money.

[Rocke_T_Sinetist]

Refutation of merchantability only applies to software. Essentially they license you to attempt to use it, but they bear no liability if you can't make it do what they implied it would or even if you can't make it work at all. The only thing that is guaranteed is the integrity of the copying process they made the disc (hard goods) with.

R of M is not applied to hard goods, but prior to adoption by the software industry, no merchant could expect to get away with R of M at all. What Dell did, was say "well they got away with that, let's see what WE can get away with." There are precedents for refurb warranty parts, Zenith used to do that (and look what happened to them). I did warranty service for all the Japanese electronic brands and NONE used refurbs, EVER. I don't know about big things like cars and large appliances. Appliance parts typically aren't candidates for refurbishing. Car parts can be bought refurb for a reduced price on the aftermarket, but as far as I know if your Ford water pump fails in warranty you get a factory-new one.

So what Dell is doing amounts to bogosity creep right up to the line they think they can get away with. This includes their agents stonewalling you, effectively making the warranty inaccessable. It includes advertising 'no-interest' financing then charging you 30% APR because it 'turned out' you didn't qualify. The NY AG is suing them on all these issues on behalf of State residents, but as much to create a political opportunity as anything.

Proceed with your proceeding, and let us know how it turns out. I think you're right, corporations don't own the government in Canada like they do here.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...'

[Omega]

[Rocke_T_Sinetist]

'People telling people' what a hosebag Dell is, is a) what we're here for, b) why Dell stock has fallen as much as HP's has risen in the same time, and c) Dell knew it would happen and did it anyway.

They knew that for every customer they pissed off, they could attract 100 new ones with claims like 'Complete system $299', 'Zero-interest financing', and 'Award-winning service'. All short-term expedients to make quarterly results match predictions, with no consideration whatsoever for anything beyond that.

Look at their print ads. There's 10x more disclaimers than copy. That it takes them a full inch across a full page to print disclaimers in the smallest font the medium supports, should tell potential customers something about what they're up to.

I spit in the face of corporate manipulation too. But as a metaphor for cultural disease, Dell is just an ingrown hair. China ships us toxic food. Monsanto alters the genetics of the food chain without any oversight whatsoever. US car companies haven't made a respectable product since 1970, only their ads have gotten better. Have a wholesome treat of microwave popcorn? The butter flavoring dust kills the workers that make it. The oil-proof bag coating releases perfluorooctanoic acid, a carcinogen in EVERY American's bloodstream.

It's coming to a point where you have to pick your battles, and the enemies are entrenched and amorphous specifically so as to make them invulnerable.
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Rocke T Sinetist
as in, 'it doesn't take a...'

[Omega]

[slinky317]

Omega,
You will not win this case. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's a fact. Other people seem to have told this to you nicely but you're not listening.

First of all, let's cover the Terms and Conditions. In one of the opening lines, the terms say: